Author
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Topic: Apollo lunar landing under computer control
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collocation Member Posts: 387 From: McLean, VA Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 12-03-2005 05:31 PM
Was the Apollo lunar module programmed to land by itself? If Neil Armstrong would not have taken over to avoid the boulder field on Apollo 11, would the lunar module have landed by computer? |
Obviousman Member Posts: 438 From: NSW, Australia Registered: May 2005
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posted 12-03-2005 10:40 PM
Yes, it had a full "autoland" facility but it was never actually used in landing. All the crews performed manual landings. |
Obviousman Member Posts: 438 From: NSW, Australia Registered: May 2005
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posted 12-04-2005 02:53 AM
I was looking through the JSC Oral History transcript of Armstrong, and he remarks the LM could make a fully automatic landing.Looking through LM stuff, I came aross programme P65 of the GNC. It's says that if manual control (P66) hadn't been taken after P64 ends, the GNC would go to P65 which would null rates and make an automatic touchdown. |
spaceuk Member Posts: 2113 From: Staffs, UK Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 12-04-2005 06:22 AM
With Apollo 11 LM guidance the "target" was actually below lunar ground and if auto landing undertaken the chances are the vehicle would have hit the ground at too high a velocity and the crushable landing legs would probably have buckled and caused major damage? A LM ascent stage abort would definitely have been required. |
ivorwilliams Member Posts: 69 From: England Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 12-04-2005 07:12 AM
I suppose the other issue with a fully automated landing would be that the computer would not be able to pick out any hazardous obstacles in the landing area. |
collocation Member Posts: 387 From: McLean, VA Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 12-04-2005 04:47 PM
Was it understood that Armstrong would have taken control at some point in time or was the LM expected to "land it itself" under the control of a computer? |
Obviousman Member Posts: 438 From: NSW, Australia Registered: May 2005
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posted 12-05-2005 03:31 AM
The only references I can find talk aboutit being an "optional" mode. Apparently none of the crews had enough confidence in it to go fully auto to touchdown (manual shutoff of the DPS was still required).The point where individual crews took over (P66) varied though. I get the impression that a manual touchdown was always planned, with auto as a backup for some reason. |
collocation Member Posts: 387 From: McLean, VA Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 12-05-2005 07:53 AM
Thanks for the info, what does DPS stand for? |
astroborg Member Posts: 208 From: Woodbridge, VA, USA Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 12-05-2005 09:24 AM
I think it is: Descent Propulsion System. |
tegwilym Member Posts: 2339 From: Sturgeon Bay, WI Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 12-05-2005 11:45 AM
I'll just say if I had a chance to land on the moon, I sure wouldn't want that autopilot landing me. A true pilot would want some lunar "stick time" for the logbook, you only get once chance to put that landing in your book! |
Obviousman Member Posts: 438 From: NSW, Australia Registered: May 2005
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posted 12-07-2005 02:42 AM
quote: Originally posted by astroborg: I think it is: Descent Propulsion System.
Yep, that's right. When they had the Lunar Contact light illuminate, they would shut off the DPS exactly the same way whether in P65 (Auto) or P66 (Semi-auto). I think it was P67 that was a fully manual mode, but that was strictly a backup. No-one ever used it to my knowledge. |
spaceuk Member Posts: 2113 From: Staffs, UK Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 12-22-2005 03:45 AM
I thought I'd look into this question of automatic LM landing a bit deeper — in the pre-mission NASA MSC and contractor (MIT) manuals to see what they said.Basically, they said that the landing phase was designed to be automatic but would provide for crew visual assessment of the landing site and, if required, to provide capability for pilot take-over from the automatic control — which is what happened on the actual Apollo missions. Under the automatic guidance, a vertical descent was initiated when the TGO (time to go to landing) was less than 12 seconds or at an altitude of 200 feet and would terminate on landing. A rate of 5 fps would be used throughout an automatically controlled vertical descent. The crew would need to disable the descent engine when the footpad probes touched the surface. (See notes 1 and 2 below). The vertical descent guidance used a routine that nulled the lateral (horizontal) velocities while accepting the commanded vertical rate from the ROD (Rate Of Descent) switch. The vertical rate was also controllable by manual throttle control. Note 1: An earlier NASA MSC document said that the LM vertical descent would have started at 100 feet altitude and rate of descent would have been 3 fps. Note 2: I'm not sure what would have happened, under automatic guidance, if the TGO was 12 seconds or less and the LM found itself at a higher than 200 feet altitude? I assume the crew would have taken over using manual control before this happened? (This will be more a consideration for the new lunar module cargo delivery flights.) |
Larry McGlynn Member Posts: 1343 From: Boston, MA Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 12-22-2005 10:05 AM
This is interesting, because one of my professors is currently writing a book on the LM descents to the lunar surface. He will give me a draft when it is complete, but he did tell me that each descent was unique. |
spaceuk Member Posts: 2113 From: Staffs, UK Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 12-23-2005 09:46 AM
One of the best books to read, though technical because of its subject, is "Journey To The Moon: The History of the Apollo Guidance Computer" by Eldon C. Hall.Reading that book will give you a fairly good starting point and understanding as to why each LM had "unique" software for its mission. Another book worth having, especially if you're not a guidance engineer but have an insatiable appetite for understanding of how do we "fly" to the Moon, is "Lunar Landing and Return: A Simplified Physics and Mathematics Investigation" by Donald C. Lundy. Read through the chapters of this book and carryout the exercises and your half way to becoming a G&N programmer. But, if you really want to get serious read the technical papers by Klump, Hoag, Battin, Blair-Smith and many others published before, during and post Apollo. |
spaceuk Member Posts: 2113 From: Staffs, UK Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 12-24-2005 10:30 AM
An Apollo LM descent "potpourri": - The gyros in the IMU spun at 24,000 rpm.
- The P64 program began at about 1.36 miles altitude above lunar surface.
- The commander could start the Terminal Landing Phase at any time during the running of the P64 program.
- LGC coding was done in LGC basic and interpretive language - there was no LGC compiler.
- The commander could redesignate the landing site upto 10 seconds before reaching the P64 'target site' point, when P66 was initiated.
- A LM negative pitch rotation gave a new site beyond the 'present' site.
- A LM positive pitch rotation gave a new site short of 'present' site.
- A LM positive roll gave a new site to the right of the 'present' site.
- A LM negative roll gave a new site to the left of the 'present' site.
- During the P64 program, when the LGC estimated the altitude to be below 30,000 feet, X-axis override was NOT provided to the crew.
- ROD was not enabled in the P64 program.
- The P64 program could not be restarted once program P66 initiated - so any site redesignation must have been undertaken before P66 initiated.
- The P66 terminal descent phase began at 100 feet altitude and 36 feet ground range from the landing site.
- Whenever the commander raised or lowered the 3-position ROD (rate of descent) switch with his left hand the altitude was raised/lowered by 1 foot/second.
- The P66 programs vertical channel was accessed once per second.
- During the P66 terminal descent phase there were no 'window commands' allowed - yaw was done manually.
- During the P66 program 0.33 seconds elapsed between the accelerometers reading and then issuing the throttle increment command.
- Further delays were added when the thrust increment command was issued. Because guidance needed data responses as short as 1.5 seconds, the P66 throttle routine (THROT) had to take into account these delays and calculate (in advance) a correction for thrust movement for the NEXT cycle.
- During P66 program only the landing radar (LR) could update the LM state vector.
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Obviousman Member Posts: 438 From: NSW, Australia Registered: May 2005
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posted 12-27-2005 04:32 AM
Another interesting point was discovered during the Apollo 12 planning.If they wanted to update the LM position, it was thought they'd have to go through a tedious routine of putting in new positions to the GNC. This involved several entries into the computer. A bright spark suggested they simply "move" the landing position to make allowance for the correction to the LM position. In other words, instead of having to update the LM position 600m, they simply moved the LM landing point 600m in the appropriate direction. This changed the 'correction' from a multi-step entry to a single-step entry. |